hearts and minds

September 13, 2007

The Madness Must End – Part II

Filed under: Chickenhawks,Iraq,War on Terror — Hearts & Minds @ 9:20 am

“Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius–and a lot of courage–to move in the opposite direction.” Albert Einstein (mathematician)

Five years ago (and six months prior to the invasion of Iraq in March, 2003) my column in the Ozaukee News-Graphic (in response to the just-initiated Bush Administration PR campaign to invade Iraq) warned that “Targeting Iraq when no evidence exists and none of the hijackers were Iraqi … indicate(s) that we are off course and heading for the rocks.” There was substantial reader response to that column. There were calls for firing me, and for readers to cancel their subscriptions and their advertising. But, bottom line, 80 percent of all reader response sent to the newspaper agreed with my commentary and brief re-cap of history, archived only here.

“The Madness Must End – September 2002” was unique at the time, appearing in a general readership newspaper, circulated in Ozaukee County, the wealthiest per capita in Wisconsin, which has lately voted the straight Republican ticket by a 2-to-1 margin, with partisan local elections usually uncontested. In stark and pathetic contrast, the US mass media, both broadcast and print (together with most elected representatives) failed to question the justification for invading Iraq while there was still time to stop it.

Most (but not quite all) Senators and Representatives voted almost five years ago to authorize an invasion of Iraq, based on assertions and assurances which were highly suspect at the time, and have proven to be false. The official justifications and propaganda prior to invading Iraq were the false allegations that Iraq had “weapons of mass destruction” that imminently threatened the American people at home, the repeated false implications that Iraq was responsible for the September 11, 2001 attacks, and the fabrication that al Qaeda was connected to the Iraqi government. The Administration assured us that taking Iraq would be “a cakewalk”, and that we “will be greeted as liberators”.

No “weapons of mass destruction” were found. Iraq was in no way responsible for the September 11, 2001 attack on America. Not even a single hijacker was from Iraq. There was no Al Qaeda presence in, or even connection to Iraq before the US invaded. The harsh but simple truth is that Iraq and her people were innocent of all accusations made prior to the invasion, and thus the invasion was an unjustified illegal war of aggression. The invasion was a clear and quick military victory by our troops, and the Iraqi Army was quickly dispersed and overwhelmed. The administration devised after-the-fact justifications for invading Iraq to replace the others that couldn’t hold water. But the last four and a half years have hardly been a cakewalk for those shouldering the load in Iraq.

“… tho’ the soldiers knew Someone had blunder’d: Theirs not to make reply, Theirs not to reason why, Theirs but to do and die: Into the valley of Death Rode the six hundred.”
“The Charge of the Light Brigade” by Alfred Tennyson 1855 (a poet without combat experience)

The military invasion was executed virtually without flaw by U.S. military troops, but the fact that the invasion itself was unjustified, and that the Iraqi people had done nothing to harm or even threaten America, planted the inevitable seeds of righteous patriotic resistance. When the brilliant military victory of the invasion and conquest of Iraq was followed by an armed occupation and an arbitrary and ineffective government by foreign decree, those seeds of resistance were fertilized.

Hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens, mostly women and children, have died in the violence of the invasion and the four-plus years of continuing occupation. Millions of Iraqis are now destitute refugees in neighboring Middle East countries. These daily increasing casualties of the occupation fuel a white-hot anger, and breed insurrection. The Administration claimed that its policy would bring freedom and democracy to the Iraqi people. Instead it brought death, deprivation, and daily indignity, and inevitably provoked the resistance to become an armed and desperate insurrection.

One of the tragedies of this neo-con misadventure in Iraq is that honorable, victorious, courageous American troops are now occupying an unwilling country, and engaged in trying to quell an understandable insurrection of Iraqi patriots opposing a foreign military occupation.

American troops, without the necessary language and historical and cultural knowledge, are also in the untenable position of refereeing a civil war that has erupted during the occupation that followed their military victory in 2003. That civil war is a direct legacy of the ethnic tensions and arbitrary national boundaries established after World War I by the British colonial regime.

And the continuing occupation of Iraq, with the millions of deaths, casualties, and homeless refugees, reinforces worldwide al Qaeda recruitment and propaganda. The destruction of the Iraqi regime in 2003 opened Iraq, for the first time, to suicidal foreign al Qaeda combatants who now attack and kill American troops and Iraqis, and provoke sectarian violence.

The U.S. military quickly won the war Bush started in 2003. But three predictable, intractable nasty new wars sprang up to replace the war the troops already won with honor.

Politicians who support this invasion and occupation of Iraq, and who want our troops to stay there and fight these three new wars, are satisfied to place the entire blood and guts burden on the troops who are there, and who have already been there. These chicken-hawks will not dare to require that ALL Americans equally share the danger and burden of these unending, escalating conflicts by instituting a fair and universal draft with NO exemptions or deferments for the privileged. They say they “support the troops”, yet they cut funds and programs for veterans, and scapegoat a few non-coms and privates for systematic policies of human rights violations. They refuse to hold accountable those who establish the policies of torture, and secret imprisonment without recourse, and the employment of unregulated mercenaries. They vote to provide funds (without any conditions) to continue this illegal occupation indefinitely. And they will not even consider paying the stupendous financial burden as we go. Instead, they make a mockery of their so-called fiscal conservative roots by shoving the entire debt being incurred for this occupation on the children and on generations yet unborn.

“We’re waist deep in the Big Muddy, And the big fool says to push on.”
Pete Seeger, 1967 (Army veteran, sentenced to 10 years in 1953 for contempt of Congress)

How can anyone swallow the latest assurances and urging to stay the course, from an Administration that has so misled and misinformed us for years? Terrible mistakes were made that cannot be corrected by feigning denial and by pushing on. Might doesn’t make right. And two wrongs don’t make a right. If the President and members of Congress are unwilling to face the consequences, then we must require them to do so, or face impeachment and trial.

Four long years ago US military forces won the war in Iraq within a couple months.
And now that we all know without a doubt how wrong were the Administration’s “facts” and the justification for starting a war in Iraq, it is long past time to Honor the Troops for their victory and their service, bring them finally home, and End the Occupation of Iraq now.


  1. Like you, I have opposed the war from the very beginning. I wrote letters to the editor of both papers up here and to the Milwaukee Journal/Sentinel. I applaud your courage and the courage of the Ozaukee News Graphic. It might seem impossible but this area is even more Republican than the Cedarburg area. Every day I wear a pin that has a picture of Bush and the pin reads “Miserable Failure”. I don’t make many friends but I would rather be right than friendly.

    Comment by Mike T — September 13, 2007 @ 4:56 pm | Reply

  2. I am originally from Cedarburg, WI, the small historic “tourist” attraction, but to me “home”. As a youth … and still to this day … I see the population is still apathetic and dense … believing tv, mass media, George Bush, ANYONE affiliated with the church …

    I appreciate there being truth published at all, let alone a rural area, where all people usually turn to TV for the latest propaganda and horror stories.

    Ron Paul 2008,

    Comment by Ryan B — September 13, 2007 @ 6:26 pm | Reply

  3. I enjoy reading your columns. Please keep on writing, especially as it pertains to this disastrous war we are in. Both political parties have been high jacked by the neo-cons . Until Americans wake up and take back their country we will be put into one war after another. The economic consequences are almost as great as the loss of life. I fear that Syria and Iran are now in the cross hairs of the neo-cons.

    Comment by Tim M — September 14, 2007 @ 5:45 am | Reply

  4. Error in your date above. Bush’s illegal and unnecessary invasion of Iraq occured on 20-Mar-03.

    Comment by Vigilante — September 15, 2007 @ 11:14 am | Reply

  5. the author replies to Vigilante:

    Thank you for spotting, and informing me of the mistake I made in the first sentence of my text. I had written “March, 2002”. I have corrected it to read March 2003.

    Comment by clydewinter — September 15, 2007 @ 2:41 pm | Reply

  6. Although I appreciate your passion, I do not share your version of the truth as you expound it … (Bush Lies! Bush lies!) and frankly, am tiring of reading your selective description of what I see, believe very differently:



    “Ill conceived” — grant poorly executed…

    “Absolutely untrue” (NO truth? None? Not a scintilla? Hmmmm)

    I agree is now a civil war now too…now, what do about? Cut and run? Abrogate? Appease? How will this be better?

    Please take me off your distribution.

    Have a great life…

    Respectfully, Pete S

    Comment by Pete S — September 17, 2007 @ 5:39 pm | Reply

  7. The author replies to Pete S:

    I don’t expect that anyone shares “my version of the truth”, Pete. There are as many versions as there are people, it seems. And there’s no point in researching and writing simply for an audience that thinks in lock step with my version. I appreciate and seek thought provoking dialogue.

    President Bush himself has referred quite accurately to the US “occupation” of Iraq. That is certainly what it is, and I don’t see what the point is in refusing to use the accurate appellation.

    On the other hand, “propaganda” is, admittedly, an emotionally loaded word, that irritates or angers those who believe that the communications referenced are the simple truth. However, while propaganda does involve the manipulation of public opinion, it only carries the implication that the communications, or some portion of them, may distort, subvert, or even deny the truth. I believe that propaganda is an accurate descriptor in this case, but I can understand why some would be offended and object to that term.

    There is certainly a difference between “ill-conceived” and “poorly executed”. I chose ill-conceived, because I think that description is supportable. I actually do NOT have enough information to assert that it was poorly executed. However, you may well be correct.

    The reasons for invading Iraq given by the Administration before the fact proved to be sufficiently “absolutely untrue” to render the military invasion, death, and destruction that followed, to be absolutely unjustified. Yes.

    Regarding the aftermath of the invasion, including the MILLIONS of casualties and refugees, the understandable insurrection, and the civil war, I agree with your implication that we bear responsibility and cannot just “cut and run”. I do NOT, however, think the US has any moral or legal right to be in charge of the aftermath or to set conditions on Iraq or on the people of Iraq who are the victims of this unjustified war of aggression against a nation and people who did NOT attack us, and who did NOT present a threat to the United States.

    In any case, Pete, thank you sincerely for the challenging, thoughtful comments, and I have taken you off the list, as you ask.

    Comment by clydewinter — September 17, 2007 @ 5:51 pm | Reply

  8. … while browsing through channels on the television one night a couple years ago, I came across a documentary (on either 10 or 36) about Gerald Ford and his presidency. And there I saw seated at the round table none other than Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney. They were present “at the table” during the Vietnam war just as they were during this one. And I knew in that instant that none of what was at the time happening in Iraq was a mistake nor an oversight. Everything that happened during the invasion and immediate aftermath was (had to be since we’d been there before) foreseen and known, they either had a master plan that wasn’t being spelled out or just didn’t care what they were doing to this country because of “other” priorities. They can’t have been so stupid as to misread the “enemy” so badly twice in their lifetimes. They knew exactly what they were doing, of that I’m sure deep down in my bones. I have needed no other proof since that day.

    Comment by Michelle S. — September 18, 2007 @ 12:10 am | Reply

  9. Re: Pete (see comment 6 above) – “I agree [this] is now a civil war, too…now, what [to] do about [it]? Cut and run? Abrogate? [wrong word? is "abdicate" intended?] Appease? How will this be better?”

    Here’s a quick summary of options:

    1. Maintain the current strategy and hope the dysfunctional Iraq government somehow finds its bearing.

    2. Withdraw and hope for the best: best case scenario is another dictatorship will rise, worst case scenario is a regional civil war.

    3. The Sen. Joe Biden-Leslie Gelb plan for Iraq that would decentralize the current Iraq government. This would create more autonomy for the Kurds, Shi’a, and Sunni groups while leaving a small federal government to redistribute oil wealth.

    [Note from clyde winter: some grammar alterations, indicated in italics, in square parentheses, were made by me, for the sake of clarity.]

    Comment by Tim R — September 23, 2007 @ 4:48 pm | Reply

  10. THE WAR AGAINST TERROR HAS ONLY JUST BEGUN (an essay that ran in rebuttal in the Ozaukee News-Graphic in a following issue.)

    “America must not ignore the threat gathering against us. Facing clear evidence of peril, we cannot wait for the final proof, the smoking gun that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud.” – President George Bush.

    Clyde Winter’s excoriating September 13 editorial, It’s Past Time For Us To Get Out Of Iraq, seems to be more of the same worn out anti-war finger-pointing and hand-wringing we’ve been treated to over the past six years. Devoid of constructive ideas about how to solve the problem of radical Islam and its self-proclaimed mission to kill Americans both within our borders and abroad, the soporific “Bush lied, people died” demagogery of the anti-war left has now devolved into something symptomatic of an advanced and terminal stage of Bush Derangement Syndrome. Everyone dislikes war; but many of us dislike what happened on 9/11 even more. To argue that our business in Iraq is not related to the War on Terror is inaccurate and negligent; to argue that we should run away even if it is – is simply irresponsible.

    On October 11, 2002, Congress overwhelmingly voted to authorize the use of the United States Armed Forces against Iraq. Every Democrat on Capitol Hill denounced Saddam Hussein’s barbaric rape rooms, the Kurdish genocide, and his defiant and consistent violation of sixteen U.N. Security Council Resolutions. Even they got it right when they agreed publicly that Saddam had developed and used chemical and biological weapons, and was largely desirous of developing nuclear weapons as well. Congress overwhelmingly supported Bush in invading Iraq because – as history will bear out – removing a brutal dictator and simultaneously giving democracy a foothold against radical Islam in the Middle East is just one of many necessary steps needed to win the war against a faceless and ubiquitous enemy. WMD’s got a lot of play in the press because they were perhaps the one reason for invading that both Democrats and Republicans could agree on. Despite the fact that no such weapons were found, there is no question they were there at one point – Saddam Hussein used them to kill hundreds of thousands of his citizens. That is a sobering fact.

    Our military achieved an historic victory in the conventional war in Afghanistan and Iraq – against the world’s fourth largest army. The “Mission Accomplished” sign hung proudly on the U.S.S. Abraham Lincoln was not “famously” proclaimed by President Bush as Winter claims. It was hung not by the White House, but by a proud U.S. Navy, because its job was done. However, the world’s job of bringing democracy, stability, and freedom to millions of Iraq men and women had only just begun. Even before our removal of Iraq’s despot, Iraq was proven to be a haven for al Qaeda fighters who had fled the U.S. military campaign in Afghanistan. By the terrorists’ own admissions, Iraq was, and still is, a key battleground in their war against the West. The dwindling terrorist group, Tanzim Qaidat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn, led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi until his death in 2006, IS al Qaeda, and has been responsible for the dying insurgency in Iraq and the death of far too many American soldiers. That is why we are there. We are fighting the brothers and sympathizers of the terrorists who slaughtered 2,819 innocent Americans on 9/11. Claiming that these terrorists will only be made more angry with our presence in the Middle East or can be pacified with a little diplomacy once they get to know us, is a futile exercise in circular logic that leaves America open to future attacks by an even stronger enemy.

    Today, success is written everywhere in Iraq. Decreased sectarian violence, a diminished al-Qaeda presence, improved cooperation with local tribes, and business as usual in the streets of Iraqi cities evidence an historic political makeover which will help safeguard American citizens and change the face of the Middle East forever. Women can walk to work without fear of being shot or worse – solely for the crime of working. Schools, hospitals, and businesses are all running smoothly. Iraq has rapidly undergone a political transformation that is virtually without precedent in the history of mankind. Iraqis have completed three successful nationwide elections, voted for a transitional government, drafted the most progressive, democratic constitution in the Arab world, approved that constitution, and elected a new government under their new constitution. Each successive election has seen less violence, bigger turnout, and broader participation than the ones before. Sadly, these things don’t receive the publicity they deserve. That we would now be treated to Clyde Winter’s article about getting out of Iraq – when the surge has brought us to within months of achieving our goals – is not only puzzling, but extremely frustrating.

    All of our success in Iraq, militarily and politically, was accomplished while all Americans, including Clyde Winter, remained protected and secure from further terrorist attacks. Dozens of domestic terror cells have been broken up and many terrorist plots have been foiled. All of this is credited to a President who put American security ahead of poll numbers and a country which stayed committed to a principled cause – despite a cacophony of dissent and abuse from Hollywood, the American left, and France – the latter of which has recently realized that tough talk and military action may be the only solution to the threat of Iran. Americans opposed to war at all costs have come nose-to-nose with those opposed to future attacks on our soil at any cost.

    Freedom comes at a steep price. Every American life lost is a tragedy, and even our own local community has lost sons and daughters who gave their lives valiantly in order to secure and maintain our freedom in the battle against this faceless enemy – an enemy who vows to strike again on our own soil. Clyde Winter has a right to his opinion – and an even stronger right to express it. What I don’t hear from Clyde and those who insist on immediate surrender in Iraq is a plan to protect that right. Clyde wants out of Iraq now. I wonder how he’ll feel about Iran – whose government has funded and armed the failing insurgency in Iraq and attempted to make it look like a sectarian civil war? What about the Sudan? Syria? If we don’t have the stomach for Iraq, how do we plan to keep our country safe over the next ten or twenty years? President Bush may not be eloquent, but he does have a plan; and that plan has safeguarded everyone’s right to criticize him.

    Getting out of Iraq now – just as we teeter on the brink of winning the first of many battles – would be an irreparable mistake of monumental proportions. Osama bin Laden has always said that America has no spine, and that our premature withdrawal would vindicate him and his followers. It would give militant Islam a breeding ground, and America would be less safe – no matter how tortuous airport security becomes and no matter how many cargo containers we inspect at our harbors. I can see Osama in his video message, talking about the weak American will. We should all take note of the crickets chirping when well-intentioned but misguided Americans like Clyde Winter are asked for a plan for winning the War on Terror. Perhaps we should be very, very certain we are losing before we throw in the towel. Why? Because as technology advances, so will radical Islam. We dare not become lazy, soft, or lethargic now, only to one day face the prospect of a mushroom cloud settling over a populated city somewhere in our great country. It will be too late then.

    Comment by Gary W — October 1, 2007 @ 1:07 am | Reply

  11. the author replies to Gary W:

    It is my impression that your essay was intended as a personal attack on me. I say this because you repeated my name six times in your expression of support for the Bush Administration actions and policy. A personal attack, while not particularly substantive, is okay I guess, and might have its place at times, but that personal attack did not extend to an attack on what I actually said in my column.

    To the extent your essay attacked a point of view or arguments with which you disagree, it did so by committing the facile sophomoric fallacy of setting up and taking swipes at straw men arguments, not at mine. Alternatively, and more appropriately, you could have written a stand alone essay simply supporting the Bush policy and past actions. Or you could have attacked any arguments you chose to present, without making the mistake of misrepresenting them as MY arguments. Finally, you could have actually taken on my arguments, rather than side step and ignore them in favor of your preferred targets while repeatedly attacking me by name.

    Your opening sentence description of my September 13 column is best described as scattergun hyperbole, Gary. It is pretty hard to be both “excoriating” and “hand-wringing” at the same time. And neither word describes my tone or attitude in that column.

    I did not “argue that … Iraq is not related to the war on terror”, nor did I defend or adopt the arguments of “Every Democrat on Capitol Hill …” who knuckled under to the bums rush to invade Iraq, as you implied. I did not “insist on immediate surrender in Iraq”. My article did not even mention the “Mission Accomplished” banner to which you alluded in a sentence that included quotation marks and ascribed particular remarks explicitly but incorrectly to my September 13 column.

    You did make certain substantive arguments and a case that can be left to stand or collapse on its own merits (interleaved clumsily within the attack on me, my column, and the straw men which you incorporated). I disagree with your arguments and your case in support of the Bush policy and actions, and I also believe certain assertions of fact contained within your essay are in substantial error. Nevertheless, I feel impelled to return the favor and remind you of the grammar school civics lesson that you certainly have a right to your opinion, and you have a perfect right to express it. In fact, you are welcome to post your essay as a comment to mine on my blog.

    Gary, when I proclaim you have that right, doesn’t it sound just a bit like I am representing myself as a superior being who is condescendingly and indulgently bestowing that right upon you? I mean, who the hell are you or me to (with an appearance of forbearance and tolerance for the other’s woefully mistaken and misguided perceptions) magnanimously proclaim that the other has that right? Defend that right courageously when it is under attack from elsewhere … not hypocritically (as did Marc Anthony) when you are doing the attacking.

    You asked rhetorically what is my “… PLAN to protect that right.” I have a different question for you. We have seen more than enough chicken-hawks with plans galore to start and support wars that OTHERS, not themselves or their families, will fight. So my first question is, “What have you DONE to protect our rights?” Not “What is your plan?”

    Your essay provoked a bit of nauseous nostalgia in me. It is a long time since I last heard the assertion that Iraq in 2002-03 had “the worlds fourth largest (standing and provisioned for combat?) Army”. It is similarly quite a while since reasonable and knowledgeable people stopped listening to the claim that before the invasion “… Iraq was proven to be a haven for al Qaeda’s fighters …”

    I especially gagged at the dejavu moment to look for the light at the end of the tunnel you seem to see now that “… the surge has brought us to within months of achieving our goals…” And (last but not least) I needed no finger in my throat to react to “… the prospect of a mushroom cloud…” which has long and repeatedly been used to incite fear in us.

    It was also tough to hear again that “Every AMERICAN life lost is a tragedy” – a phrase that is all too ready on glib lips to clinch a hollow argument. The hard truth is that EVERY life, of whatever nationality, that is lost in war (ESPECIALLY in an unjustified invasion and occupation) is a tragedy, and the negligently uncounted lives lost so far number in the neighborhood of a MILLION, with ADDITIONAL MILLIONS of critically injured people and homeless refugees. Freedom does sometimes come at a steep price. But so does bad policy, headstrong agendas, stupid mistakes, careless political expediency, and an unjustified invasion and illegal occupation come “at a steep price.”

    Comment by clydewinter — October 1, 2007 @ 1:23 am | Reply

  12. In Mr. Wickert’s article of 9-27-07 in News Graphic (see comment 10 above) he trots out the same worn out cliches spouted by a President who was listed as AWOL when he was in The Guard, a Draft Dodging Vice President, and their cronies. And quoting George W. Bush at this juncture is unconscionable.

    Mr. Wickert persuades no one who hasn’t already allowed themselves to be brain washed by this foolish, quasi patriotic diatribe.

    This ill fated and poorly conceived war in Iraq is not about freedom and democracy; it is about controlling oil that doesn’t belong to us. And our presence in Iraq has brought more recruits to the terrorists than one can imagine.

    The war is about trying to control a semi-literate culture that places more value on their religion than on western democratic values. It is about people who want to control their own destiny but can’t because the U.S supports autocratic regimes like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Israel, and formerly Iraq under Saddam Husein.

    The real war should have been all out in Afghanistan in the beginning, a country which is now growing the product that is converted into 98% of the world’s heroin. Everyone knows this. And that war is failing too!

    Perhaps Mr. Wickert, and others who subscribe to his message, ought to listen to someone beside Rush Limbaugh and the White House staff. Perhaps they ought to read something other than The National Review to find out what’s really happening in Iraq.

    It is a terrible waste of human life, not to mention money, to fight such a futile war. Of course nothing is impossible for people who don’t have to participate is it?

    While Clyde Winter isn’t perfect by any means, but he did at least serve our fine country with at least 2 years in the airborne infantry. And so did I.

    No, we cannot arbitrarily withdraw from Iraq all at once. After devastating that country it is our obligation to help the Iraqi’s rebuild it. We can begin by decreasing the war effort, and by withdrawing our troops in a timely fashion starting now; and we can support the political will of the Iraqi’s in whatever form it takes.

    Finally, I am curious to know whether or not Mr. Wickert paid his debt to America by serving in the military? If he did, I Thank him. If he didn’t, maybe he should have before advocating sending our young men and women to die or get maimed for a this senseless war

    Comment by Tom G — October 7, 2007 @ 5:32 pm | Reply

  13. Recent revelations in the Chicago Tribune Oct. 2 issue should put to rest once and for all who is behind this war and the upcoming wars with Syria and Iran. The US has become a vassal of the imperialistic Zionist who are anxious to expand Israeli territory at the expense of the Palestinians and US blood and fortune. Their total disregard for the American lives on the USS Liberty is proof enough.
    The recently published book” Israeli Lobby and US Foreighn Policy” is the best expose of AIPAC and it’s treasons activitys.

    Comment by Tim M — October 7, 2007 @ 8:09 pm | Reply

  14. […] include all Iraqi people who have died as a consequence of the invasion and occupation. I have previously cited a peer reviewed 20 Nov 2004 study, and a 21 Oct 2006 follow-up, performed by Johns-Hopkins […]

    Pingback by 3 Up, 3 Down - Ozaukee County Softball « hearts and minds — April 21, 2008 @ 1:47 am | Reply

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